“ … most churches are bounded set …”
“ … most of us don’t want to join somebody else’s bounded set …”
Here's a link to a couple of talks that my father-in-law sent me. Each talk is about 2 hours long so you might need to listen over several sessions.
http://www.nycvineyard.org/resources/resources.php?page=schmelzer
It’s slightly abstract, but is there any value in looking at life through these lenses?
12 comments:
has anybody else listened to these talks?
if you can't download them, ask someone to burn you a cd or something.
personally i find them a very helpful perspective on where i stand as an individual, where i stand relative to others, and where 'believers' (as a body) stand.
we just have to accept that any meeting, group, forum, etc is 'bounded set' by definition. but to acknowledge the perimeter circle, and to explain it, frequently, is essential.
people in a stage 3 state think that people in a stage 2 state dont see the circle because they dont acknowledge it and talk about it and so it becomes a stronghold.
if our attention turns to the circle, at the expense of the dot, then 'the church' becomes an institution, rather than a body of believers.
i do not agree that Jesus is the dot. God is the dot. Jesus is the way, even Jesus himself said that.
... and here's one to really mess with your melon ... if 'moving towards Jesus' is 'centred set', then everyone who subscribes to that view becomes 'bounded set'!!
Pretty abstract. Only useful from the point of view of raising up discussion. Are those people who think they are centred on Jesus bounded by that fact? I think Islam, Buddhism and Hinduism probably think they are centred but become bounded by the fact they are believing in a lie. I also don't believe in Stage 4 churches, surely it is God, Son and Holy Spirit who provide the answers not the church. The church only provides a framework for fanning in to the flames.
I forget all the ins and out of Schmelzers arguments but my latest revelation on the subject is we are either moving towards God or moving away from Him, or was that what he said?
more or less, yes. he said that we are either moving towards God, or we aren't.
one great thing about this perspective is that it separates faith from culture.
the dot is about faith, the circle is about culture.
for example, since it has become a culture in itself, christianity is not the place for ‘muslims who follow jesus’. which makes me not want to be part of it.
i would like to know where is.
If you are either moving toward God or moving away from God is there a boundary that makes you a Christian? So isn't this view really bounded set? If a muslim doesn't really accept Jesus as their saviour they are still a muslim otherwise they are a Christian. The thing I dislike about the church is (some churches) do not welcome unbelievers. IE to be part of a local church you first need to be part of Jesus' church.
in the same way that christianity is both a faith and a culture, so is islam.
it is possible to be part of the christian culture (bounded set) without actually pursuing Jesus/God (centred set).
equally, it is possible to be part of the islamic culture (bounded set) but to also pursue Jesus/God (centred set).
Culture is defined as a set of shared attitudes values and goals and pratices that characterize the group. So Jesus should define what the church looks like not the people therein, or the people within under the influence of the Holy Spirit.
Of course, it is possible to be in a church without having a spirit of true adoration and worship. Jesus washed 12 disciples feet, but "not all of all them were clean". I don't think he was referring to himself doing a bad job!
"Jesus should define what the church looks like" - can you say a bit more about what you mean?
He said if you love me you will keep my commandments, one of which was to love one another: just as I have loved you, that you love one another. By this all people will know that you are my disciples. Later... greater love has no man than to lay down his life for his friends (hope it never gets that far)... and in 1 John that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ.
We can read Paul and James to see what early churches looked like, but that was all set in certain contexts and times.
Basically whenever a group of disciples meet that is a local expression of the church and needs to be focused on a vertical love of God through Jesus Christ and a horizontal love of fellow disciples?
...and he'll send us a helper
where does it say these things?
i would say that to try and obey the commands of Jesus is 'centred set'.
it is about faith. the belief in, and pursuit of, the invisible.
but what we actually believe about what it was that Jesus said, who his words apply(ed) to, how we deculturalise his message from one culture and reculturalise it into ours, our own ideas of how to apply those things to our own lives, etc. are all 'bounded set'. we have a plethora of circles to choose from from two millennia of religious history.
I think John 14. This passage I find transcends culture and can be applied to any time any situation. I've recently been gripped by Johannine literature, out of all the gospels it is the one that best transcends culture.
Like when Jesus washed the disciples' feet, he said do 'as' I do not do 'what' I do. This can be interpreted as humble service, not footwashing as a sacrement?
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