Have a look at this link. The guys from 'ship of fools' send out 'mystery worshippers' to measure church services and write reports. This one they describe as the world's smallest church.
http://ship-of-fools.com/Mystery/2005/1117.html
Surely the church service, like the iceberg, is only the proverbial 'one tenth' that you can see.
ShipOfFools have an interesting list of standard questions for the visit. But what about the other 'nine tenths'?
What are the questions that we should really be asking? How should we really be measuring the church?
18 comments:
Mmmm interesting, my initial reaction was this is sick and a little sacrilegious, then the more I thought about it I recognised that wait a minute to some degree WE ALL DO THIS? Perhaps not so obviously and publicly but I defy anyone who refuses to believe this has gone on either consciously or subconsciously in their heads!!
Personally the things that are important to ME and I stress to ME and at THIS POINT IN MY LIFE are (although my comments are already described in Friend or Fo llower?). To reiterate my thoughts these, they are:-
- Acceptance & true friendship.
- Self awareness & consideration of the language we use.
- Openness to challenge and questioning.
Is church quantifiable is my next question? Surely subscribing to measuring church or any part of it is submitting to the Mcdonaldized society that we live in enslaving our faith to the consumerist capitalist values.
The real question should surely be not what we can get out of church but WHAT CAN WE PUT IN?
I agree with apoc, that church should not be about meeting set criteria for other people. However I think it can be an eye opening experience for members fo any church to find out what "outsiders" think of them.
I know many churches think of themselves as welcoming, but are we truly welcoming, or is that just our perception?
So as an exercise I think this could be useful to the churches involved, but should nto be used to compare one church against another necessarily.
Which question would I like to ask? How were members of different ages treated during the service? Was the service aimed at one age group, eg young people or older people, or was it inclusive? - Not sure how easy this would be!!!
Example:
How would you feel about making this church your regular (where 10 = ecstatic, 0 = terminal)?
The whole article is about 'me'.
We know that's not what it's all about? or do I?
apoc, on "...i stress to me and at this point in my life...". i don't see that you need to apologise for this. *we all* do the best we can according to what we know. we establish our values and hold fast to them. until we learn something new, when our values evolve, and we hold fast again. of course our values are based on a whole realm of assumptions, rooted in our 'past life experiences', 'the environments we live in' , our 'doctrine of belief', but to name a few.
also, i like the values you list. im not sure i agree with them all. can you root them in the bible at all?
im still unsure of the 'friendship' one. is it really part of discipleship? im thinking of a secular phrase 'you can choose your friends, but you cant choose your family' (unless you adopt, i guess). arent friends people we just chose 'to be friends with'?
on 'measurement', someone who has the job of arranging a meeting might get flustered at the thought of 'the mystery worshipper' coming through the door and try to please her/him. but is this not just 'people pleasing?'
surely the 'mystery worshipper' is just measuring 'a meeting'. which might 'indicate' what the church is like to a very very small extent. or it may not. the church is the people.
i think that measurement is very very very important. we all do it and we all need to do it. asking ourselves what we should be measuring, and whose measurement we should be using ultimately leads us to the heart of God.
dqm
why would you ask questions about age groups in a church meeting?
See also http://churchrater.com/ (North American) and how my home church got scored at http://www.churchrater.com/2006/05/04/vineyard-christian-church-of-evanston/
The Off-The-Map people are doing some interesting things.
Sputnik,
Dont get me wrong I am not apologetic mearly explanative as I recognise that my views, opinions etc are subject to change as you state. Others may or may not be in a similar place to myself so will hold different views!
Can I root my values in the bible; well admittedly with the help of a concordance See Proverbs 17 vs17 then go to 1 cor 13 vs 7 for acceptance & true friendship.
Other than that to be honest it would be opent to debate and interpretation perhaps DQM could assist though? Interestingly I believe friendship or relationship to coin another phrase is integral to discipleship. Secularly a study has been completed in the context of counselling/social work I do not have the reference to hand but shall submit later for consideration.
Think you are right Sputnik the whole mystery worshipper thing is people pleasing feeding into our mcdonaldized society as I have previously said.
Are measuring and comparing the same? The bible gives quite clear teaching on the latter which would link with Sputnik's final comment?!
its very interesting. not only do we measure 'meetings', we also measure each other. unbeliever to believer, believer to unbeliever, believer to believer.
God shows us how to measure each other in [bible:niv:nt:john8].
the three parties represent the measurer, the measured, and the measurement.
was Jesus really 'writing on the ground' or was he 'playing with the stones'?
Sputnik - the reason I would look at age groups is to see how inclusive the church is. Although I guess to that effect you could include how we respond to different types of people. I know at the time I wrote that comment it was a huge issue in my church of the young people's needs not being met in worship. Things are moving though I'm sure you'll be glad to here.
apoc - I'll get back to you on the bible roots, I don't have one to hand at work, but I think friendsip is personal to each one and what we want from it changes between times/people etc. So maybe we will not agree on this point.
Question, isn't measuring a form of judgement, and didn't Jesus say we shoudl not judge!!
Sputnik - the reason I would look at age groups is to see how inclusive the church is. Although I guess to that effect you could include how we respond to different types of people. I know at the time I wrote that comment it was a huge issue in my church of the young people's needs not being met in worship. Things are moving though I'm sure you'll be glad to here.
apoc - I'll get back to you on the bible roots, I don't have one to hand at work, but I think friendsip is personal to each one and what we want from it changes between times/people etc. So maybe we will not agree on this point.
Question, isn't measuring a form of judgement, and didn't Jesus say we should not judge!!
to apply apocs/(jfk?) principle of 'not what the church can do for me, but what i can do for the church' etc, then surely friendship is not about 'what we want from it', but 'what we can put into it'.
i like the idea of being aware of 'age groups'. at the moment i am very interested in 'building the church for the next generation'.
measuring isnt a form of judgment. judging is a form of measurement.
where 'justice' is the measure.
Sputnik,
Interesting thoughts on friendship being about what we can put into it... I would like to think that I put considerable effort into my friendships and would do anything for those I consider my friends... however interestingly I would expect the same loyalty back.... does that not link in with what the bible says as stated earlier!?
I am not sure I am feeling you re the whole judging measuring thang. Again does this boil down to language? Could you explain further? How does this relate back to the original thread?
where does the bible say that a true friend expects loyalty?
on language, 'judgment' and 'measurement' are not interchangeable. Jesus said not to 'judge'. he didnt say not to 'measure'.
everybody has to 'measure' because thats what we do in life. believer, unbeliever, we are all in the marketplace and 'measurement' is what defines the marketplace.
back on the thread, i think measurement is great. but if you want to measure the church, then the best measure is in john8.
if you just want to measure a meeting, you must first decide the purpose of the meeting, explain that purpose (frequently) so everyone understands it, and then measure against that.
if someone doesnt stand up and tell me, frequently, why we are meeting then they wont find me there for very long because i can find many good reasons to not be in meetings.
if the people who have organised the meeting dont reiterate the method of measurement over and over again, then the attendees bring in, and apply, their own methods of measurement.
Sputnik,
I did not say I was right about the whole loyalty thing only that this is what I expect!!!
I am not convinced by the whole judegment/measurement argument. Is measurement not another word for comparison which in turn can lead to judgement? Check the dictionary definitions:-
Measure:- ascertain the extent or quantity of a thing by comparison with a fixed unit or with an object of known size.
Compare:- estimate the similarity or dissimilarity of...
Judgement:- an opinion or estimate.
Didn't Isaiah say soemthing about the dangers of this [NIV]Isaiah 40v25 and if you read chapter 40 in its entirity this is in context!
It is one thing to question or ascertain the value base or 'calling' of a set of believers it would be another to start measuring them.
I have already previously spouted about the consumerist capitalist mcdonaldized society that we live in. To measure as you say Sputnik is to be in the marketplace. I think the bible is clear we are to be in the world but not of it!
measurement is important.
the difference with 'mcdonaldized consumeristic' measurement is exactly that - we measure 'what people want'. if my restaurant gives people what they want then they are more likely to spend their money here.
to do the same amongst the church is dangerous and Jesus would probably get his whip out again. e.g. if a particular group measures 'growth' by 'increase in number of people attending meetings' then there is danger of asking each other 'what we want', and then try to meet our consumeristic desires - which does of course increase numbers as proved by the marketplace. what we get then is a church divided into 'like-minded' groups of believers - not a true reflection of Gods people at all.
believers who meet together then become 'satisfied and happy' with the group where they meet, because they feel their 'needs are met'.
its fine to measure numbers of meeting attenders. (im not sure this is a real measure of church growth [bible:niv:nt:matt18]) it is not fine to try and draw people to meetings with marketplace tactics.
if you want more people to attend a meeting, you just have to invite more people.
the last church group i met with saw attendance grow threefold over a period of about a year. the group that i currently meet with has also seen attendance grow steeply. i will ask people if they think they are growing or not.
I will concede that measurement is important but only on one basis (I think!)
The only measurement we should participate in is ourselves against Jesus? Surely this is the one true measure of everything?!
What does it REALLY mean though to measure ourselves against him?
How does one go about this? Do we use a scaling technique?
How is it applied to all the different parts of modern day life?
Is consensus amongst believers as to what and how this is measured required? Is it down to our own personal enlightenment/conviction/conscience/faith?
yes this comes back to the john8 thing. measuring myself against Jesus inevitably brings me, at first, to the point of depressive failure, and then to a realisation of amazing grace.
but what about measuring 'meetings' and 'community'? it is impossible for the church (the believers collective) to do anything corporately without some kind of 'organising'. frequent measurement is the only way of making sure that such 'organising' is not creating something that we dont want to create. factories in the marketplace do this mathematically and call it 's.p.c.'
personally i think it is good to have confidence in the methods of measurement that God builds into us over time, even if they are different from other peoples, lest we become "... like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind ..." [bible:niv:nt:james1].
so, for example, apocs measures of acceptance, friendship, self-awareness, consideration of language, openness, etc might be considered some good ways to keep check on a functional community. however they are not measures that i would apply to a meeting.
to me, a christian meeting needs to be God centred and a place where every person is both contributing and growing. almost all other things need explanation on-the-run.
Regarding how meetings should be measured I have just been reading [bible:niv:nt:1cor11&14] is this what you are looking for?
I am not quite sure what you mean when you refer to "methods of measurement that God builds into us over time"? Is this conscience?
I think the question we should be asking ourselves is what would a new testament church look like in today's society and is this achievable?
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