Hey Spunink, Good question, Jesus himself said "follow me" however elsewhere in the bible Paul talks about being transformed into his likeness. I guess though equally Jesus whilst he did not directly say "be like me" did set out clear teaching on what we should be like.
I have to be a pain and answer c) other as I believe that he would say both. Jesus is someone I feel I should follow, and in following him I an trying to be more like him.
by the way, i have just commented on the church iceberg post. if people dont say so in a 'current post', i assume 'old posts' to be dead - it takes to long to check through them all.
DQM and Sputnik is this not what I said? Nemo, to equal or attain Jesus's perfection I agree would be mission impossible, however should we not strive for it though? Does this have links with the current discussion in the thread Open Forum or monoblog (You will have to read all of it for context!!) How do we respond to this then?
Re old posts see my comments in not enough explanation thread!!
Jesus, being the fulfillment of all Scripture, embodied what it means to 'be holy as I am holy'. And yes, he called lots of folk to come follow him – that's what disciples do – they watch, learn, and do as they've observed.
So to answer in another way: a = b
I'm interested in what's behind the question? Are you thinking that we should consider the words of Jesus to be, to whatever degree, more important than his actions inasmuch as they bear relevance to how we ought to live today?
yes, i think that that is one (of many) root of the question.
i am exploring a few notions. personally, my doctrine is based on a disproportionate amount of teaching from the letters of paul, peter, etc. since those guys didnt blog, to me it is like reading somebody elses mail. they were writing into certain situations and audiences so i am beginning to handle them a little more lightly than i did if they are not reinforcing something that Jesus himself said.
its interesting, '... be holy as i am holy... ' is peter quoting leviticus 11 [bible:niv:nt:1pet1]. teaching on clean/unclean food was 'peters thing' and interestingly teaching that paul writes to correct in galatians.
would a gentile believer who was wondering 'how to live' have a clue at all if they didnt read such letters? i would hope so.
in the areas in which Jesus himself said to 'do as he did', did he not say so?
isnt 'obedience' about obeying teaching and following 'the way'. Jesus said alot about the kingdom of God is like this, the kingdom of God is like that?
i dont see that God would have us strive for the impossible (a). that is what the pharisees would have us do.
wearing sandals, doing carpentry, preaching to crowds, casting out demons, retreating to solitude, not engaging in 'ministry' until the age of 33, walking on water, challenging religious leaders, winding up both religious and secular dominions to the point of death. how do we choose which parts of Christ to try and immitate and which to not, if not by what he said?
Surely we're talking about being like him regarding his character (and character-forming practices) - rather than wearing similar looking sandals.
I dunno, mate. It's going to take a lot to convince me that there's an argument for substituting the notion that we are to try to emulate the character of our master. I absolutely agree that we are to consider Jesus' teaching as vitally important to living an abundant and healthy life - but I don't see how that idea needs to be exclusive to trying to be like him.
being and doing. in the end, i guess 'who we are' dictates 'what we do'. i am with you on Christs *character/attitude* being an example to us, but do we really know what thats like? since the gospels are writings, rather than video clips, surely we largely speculate on things like Jesus' tone of voice, etc.
other than that, i wouldnt say 'being like Jesus' is the same as (equal to) 'following Jesus' because, like nemo said, (b) is possible but (a) is impossible. if Christ died once for all, we dont need any more saviours.
for example, should a believers attitude be to exercise mercy or justice? surely a believer is in a position to do neither! only the Judge, who can truly stand up and claim to be blameless and holy, can cast any kinds of judgment, or choose to acquit a guilty party.
I think this world needs a load more saviours (although not in the sense of The Atonement... once for all, etc).
I disagree - with all my heart - that it's impossible to be like Jesus. Not that we'll ever be completely up to his standard - but I'd like to think that by the time I'm put in my box, I've become at least marginally more like him than I am now. How THE heck else are we, or the world around us, ever to have any hope of change that's truly good?
Would recommend some reading of Brian McLaren. Not that he's my guide and guru - but he certainly helps us think outside of our fundamentalist boxes.
Some interesting points! I have to say I have been tying myself up in knots thinking about and considering all this stuff. Sputnik you raise some interesting points re who wrote the teachings in the bible is this not some of what we touched on in the thread friend or follower? I am not sure we came to a conclusion then either? And the whole Gentile thing and their knowledge/understanding in true or false? TTW what about Ephesians 5 re being like Jesus? I think what I keep coming back to at the moment is what I have just said in Open forum or mono-blog which is considering the greatest commandment see [bible:niv:nt:matt22]&[bible:niv:nt:mark12]. However I am not sure quite what this leaves the answer to be?
Sputnik, I completely agree that the knots are worth tackling or I would not bother contributing. What I was referring to was the discussion that began in the thread 'open forum or mono blog' which began touching on how do we choose which issues to make a stand against. This lead to me sending you a thread idea in this regard!
14 comments:
Hey Spunink,
Good question, Jesus himself said "follow me" however elsewhere in the bible Paul talks about being transformed into his likeness. I guess though equally Jesus whilst he did not directly say "be like me" did set out clear teaching on what we should be like.
B, A is mission impossible.
I have to be a pain and answer c) other as I believe that he would say both. Jesus is someone I feel I should follow, and in following him I an trying to be more like him.
i would say b) and c).
whether or not it is impossible, i dont remember Jesus saying to 'be like him'.
he certainly said 'follow me'. a follower is a disciple. he also said 'believe in me' and 'obey my teaching'.
by the way, i have just commented on the church iceberg post. if people dont say so in a 'current post', i assume 'old posts' to be dead - it takes to long to check through them all.
DQM and Sputnik is this not what I said?
Nemo, to equal or attain Jesus's perfection I agree would be mission impossible, however should we not strive for it though?
Does this have links with the current discussion in the thread Open Forum or monoblog (You will have to read all of it for context!!)
How do we respond to this then?
Re old posts see my comments in not enough explanation thread!!
Jesus, being the fulfillment of all Scripture, embodied what it means to 'be holy as I am holy'. And yes, he called lots of folk to come follow him – that's what disciples do – they watch, learn, and do as they've observed.
So to answer in another way: a = b
I'm interested in what's behind the question? Are you thinking that we should consider the words of Jesus to be, to whatever degree, more important than his actions inasmuch as they bear relevance to how we ought to live today?
yo ttw
yes, i think that that is one (of many) root of the question.
i am exploring a few notions. personally, my doctrine is based on a disproportionate amount of teaching from the letters of paul, peter, etc. since those guys didnt blog, to me it is like reading somebody elses mail. they were writing into certain situations and audiences so i am beginning to handle them a little more lightly than i did if they are not reinforcing something that Jesus himself said.
its interesting, '... be holy as i am holy... ' is peter quoting leviticus 11 [bible:niv:nt:1pet1]. teaching on clean/unclean food was 'peters thing' and interestingly teaching that paul writes to correct in galatians.
would a gentile believer who was wondering 'how to live' have a clue at all if they didnt read such letters? i would hope so.
in the areas in which Jesus himself said to 'do as he did', did he not say so?
isnt 'obedience' about obeying teaching and following 'the way'. Jesus said alot about the kingdom of God is like this, the kingdom of God is like that?
i dont see that God would have us strive for the impossible (a). that is what the pharisees would have us do.
wearing sandals, doing carpentry, preaching to crowds, casting out demons, retreating to solitude, not engaging in 'ministry' until the age of 33, walking on water, challenging religious leaders, winding up both religious and secular dominions to the point of death. how do we choose which parts of Christ to try and immitate and which to not, if not by what he said?
Surely we're talking about being like him regarding his character (and character-forming practices) - rather than wearing similar looking sandals.
I dunno, mate. It's going to take a lot to convince me that there's an argument for substituting the notion that we are to try to emulate the character of our master. I absolutely agree that we are to consider Jesus' teaching as vitally important to living an abundant and healthy life - but I don't see how that idea needs to be exclusive to trying to be like him.
I still think a = b.
being and doing. in the end, i guess 'who we are' dictates 'what we do'. i am with you on Christs *character/attitude* being an example to us, but do we really know what thats like? since the gospels are writings, rather than video clips, surely we largely speculate on things like Jesus' tone of voice, etc.
other than that, i wouldnt say 'being like Jesus' is the same as (equal to) 'following Jesus' because, like nemo said, (b) is possible but (a) is impossible. if Christ died once for all, we dont need any more saviours.
for example, should a believers attitude be to exercise mercy or justice? surely a believer is in a position to do neither! only the Judge, who can truly stand up and claim to be blameless and holy, can cast any kinds of judgment, or choose to acquit a guilty party.
a > b
I think this world needs a load more saviours (although not in the sense of The Atonement... once for all, etc).
I disagree - with all my heart - that it's impossible to be like Jesus. Not that we'll ever be completely up to his standard - but I'd like to think that by the time I'm put in my box, I've become at least marginally more like him than I am now. How THE heck else are we, or the world around us, ever to have any hope of change that's truly good?
Would recommend some reading of Brian McLaren. Not that he's my guide and guru - but he certainly helps us think outside of our fundamentalist boxes.
Some interesting points! I have to say I have been tying myself up in knots thinking about and considering all this stuff.
Sputnik you raise some interesting points re who wrote the teachings in the bible is this not some of what we touched on in the thread friend or follower? I am not sure we came to a conclusion then either?
And the whole Gentile thing and their knowledge/understanding in true or false?
TTW what about Ephesians 5 re being like Jesus?
I think what I keep coming back to at the moment is what I have just said in Open forum or mono-blog which is considering the greatest commandment see [bible:niv:nt:matt22]&[bible:niv:nt:mark12]. However I am not sure quite what this leaves the answer to be?
apoc, sorry my intention is not to tie anyone up in knots. i just believe that the knots are worth tackling.
ttw, if christianity is not fundamentalism then surely we should all throw in the towel.
Sputnik, I completely agree that the knots are worth tackling or I would not bother contributing.
What I was referring to was the discussion that began in the thread 'open forum or mono blog' which began touching on how do we choose which issues to make a stand against. This lead to me sending you a thread idea in this regard!
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