I used to work with a very lovely girl. I would always know when she was about to tell me something which (she presumed) I would not receive well, because she would start by saying two or three things about me or my character that she thought was positive.
It was a very cute mannerism, but did she think that I would find the truth hard to swallow and so just ‘dressing it up’?
Paul said that we should “… build up the church …” [bible:niv:nt:1cor14]
But I don’t see Jesus giving a soft, encouraging word when he turns the tables on the people trading in the temple area [bible:niv:nt:john2].
What does this mean for the ‘prophetic’ church. Is ‘building up’ the same as ‘saying positive things’?
13 comments:
Sometimes in order to build something up (if we mean improve it)we need to address the things that are not working, which is why Jesus turns over the tables in the temple, he is challenging the inappropriate use of the temple for personal gain.
Having recently been assessed as a preacher within my church I have had to receive feedback from many people. Some of it was hard to hear, as it pointed out my flaws, but I still needed to hear it in order to improve and progress.
In my experience it's about the way that the feedback is given. I'm happy to be told I've done something wrong as long as it's accompanied by an explanation. I didn't like the way you wrote that sermon is not helpful. I found your sermon difficult to follow as it wasn't clearly structured is helpful, painful to hear when you've worked on it for ages, but still helpful. Also necessary. Pretending I'm doing fine when I'm not won't help , as I'll soon be assessed again and if I fail I'll have no idea why.
So sometimes challenging the way things are, and building them up can be the same thing. (I think!)
dqm
please can you try and answer my questions in the last thread re:'calling'? feel free to refer to the bible.
on 'building up', so youre saying that this kind of 'harsh prophetic demonstration' is ok so long as it is accompanied by an explanation.
Jesus certainly explained why he did it. he said "... how dare you turn my Father's house into a market! ..." so what was his point, surely the traders were just making a living?
The traders were making a living by selling faith, they were selling animals for sacrifice, and changing money at high rates in order to exploit those looking for comfort at the temple. Jesus is not just angry at them trading, he is angry that they are using the name of God to exploit people. So it may have been harsh, but what they were doing was not a minor discretion.
When Jesus gets angry he is explaining that they have done something wrong, and they should not do it again. The same as when people give feedback to me about preaching.
I'd rather people didn't yell and scream at each other. Feedback is always better presented in a calm and rational way. Yet in getting mad about what's happening Jesus is fulfilling the prophecy of the psalms.
In terms of calling I'm not sure what you are asking me to explain. I believe that Jesus voice can still be heard through prayer, through people around us. Maybe you would classify this as him calling to us across the years. I believe we all have a place in God's kingdom, and the only way to discern that is to listen to his voice "calling" to us through whatever means.
interesting. how do you know all that about the high rates and the selling faith? my niv doesnt say all that.
if i set up my 'pigeons-are-us' stall in the temple area, im not sure thats 'exploitation'. just good business sense. go where the customers are. if they need to sacrifice pigeons, they may as well buy them from me!
how is this different from me selling 'music cds' from the side-room at my church chapel? or from me setting up a stand to raise funds for my 'help poor people in mongolia' charity? am i not just facilitating the worship of the people, like the pigeon trader?
'for personal gain' or 'just paying the bills? maybe energy prices and property rent were as high then as they are in england now!
I learnt about the high rates from a bible commentary, I forget which one. And part of the concern from Jesus is why were they doing it in the temple itself.
If they were trading outside the temple, or as you said from the side-room. Besides most of the selling that goes on within churches is to do with supporting the church or a charity, not about personal gain. I doubt Jesus would have been angry without good reason!!
i am open to the possibility that the commentary has some additional 'contextual information' (historical information on what else was going on in biblical times), which makes Jesus point clearer. or maybe we dilute a simple point because it would mean talking about the place where money, business and the church collide - a subject which we have made a taboo because so much of our security rests there.
away from this example. i believe that 'people pleasing' is damaging to the church. i am a people pleaser, although less so since i have started trying not to be. it is very releasing.
should we teach one another how to prophecy or how to recieve prophecy? when paul wrote to the corinthian church [bible:nt:neb:1cor13] he said "... love does not easily take offence"!
surely we should de-culturalise ourselves of 'people pleasing'. 'people pleasing' is from the market-place, making the customer happy, etc. isnt it also the reason why paul thinks that single people can have undivided fervour for God?
Isn't it pleasing to people to meet their needs? People pleasing is a very broad term. Surely it would please you if I helped you out of a difficult situation, surely the shoe boxes we send to Eastern Europe at Christmas please the young people who open. Being pleased is about being happy, and that can mean feeling loved.
so boradly speaking you could say that as Jesus says that we should love others then we are working to please them. We do this out of a sense of love for God, as the two can't be seperated - the greatest commendment...
I think with a lot of things we debate here and in life in general it's a matter of balance. you can't go all out to please people and forget God, in the same way you can't go all out to please God and forget people. It's about a happy medium for me, as with so many other things, taking anything to it's ultimate extreme is damaging and unhelpful.
dqm
i like what you say, but i disagree.
'people pleasing' is like what you said in the other post about having 'fun' identities when blogging i.e. otherwise it might stop you saying something you believe to be true because of the risk of offending someone.
sending christmas presents to eastern europe is brilliant because it is a 'prophetic' demonstration of Gods heart. it is like saying 'the kingdom of God is like this'. it demonstrates generosity, like Gods grace for us is free. it is also a demonstration, to people who think they recieve things because they deserve them, that 'grace' means 'getting what you dont deserve.
i would say to send presents just to 'please' somebody is wrong.
sometimes 'loving' means giving, sometimes it means taking away.
the two arent the same. it isnt about 'balance', which leads to compromise, it is about 'language', like apoc said.
Are you saying it doesn't please people to meet their needs? We don't do these things just to please them, it's a bi-product of the way we reach out to them.
I agree that language can be misleading, and so yes it is about language. Yet when you take the language apart and only see it literally for what it is you lose the feeling of the sentiment. I think we need to be more open to the over all sentiment, just like reading the bible.
If we took it all literally we would be in a mess, as many things contradict themselves. We have to look at the message as a while as well as the individual words.
if people didnt pursue the apparent 'contradictions', we would be in an even greater mess!
Mmmm not contributed to this one as yet so here goes...
My thoughts are I agree with both of you!!
It is about language as Sputnik says 'being a people pleaser' has certain mainly negative connotations in that it is associated with 'going along' with or 'accepting' things perhaps going aginst one's true beliefs or opinions to 'fit in'. In this way I agree with Sputnik although my experience is one of alienation rather than release!
However I see DQM's perspective but it would be about phraseology this would be 'pleasing people' which is totally different and indeed what God calls us to in the examples given.
As for WWJD well the geezer was perfect so.... no seriously though Jesus challenged and called things as he saw them, as stated he had a distinct advantage however he also ministered I think this sums it up really Jesus wouldn't people please but he would please people!
Apoc - I like the way you reason!!
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